A conversation with Dana Smith about being a pastor's wife
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Dana Smith
Being a pastor’s wife comes with some unique challenges. This week’s episode is a conversation with my wife, Dana Smith. Dana shares from her perspective the joys and struggles of being a pastor’s wife. With honesty about the struggles and wisdom for others, she talks candidly about her own life in the ministry married to a pastor. If you are a pastor’s wife, a pastor, or someone who cares deeply about the health and well-being of your pastor’s family, this episode is a must-listen.
Transcript:
Ben Smith (00:10):
This week's podcast, I think is going to be a great treat. It certainly was for me to record, and I hope and believe it will be for you to listen to. I've been in the ministry over 20 years now. And through it all, the greatest blessing to my ministry has been my precious bride, Dana. In the high moments, in the low moments, in the successes, and in the failures, she's been there all along. And I am very aware that I would not be who I am today, I would not have been able to do what God has allowed me to do in ministry, if it was not for the gift and support and help that I have received from my bride, my wife, Dana. So, I wanted to bring to you an interview with her. I wanted to do an interview with her and primarily talk about her perspective in ministry as a pastor's wife, both the positives and the negatives, the highs and the lows, and let her share her heart with you. So today I have the great privilege of interviewing my wife, Dana Smith.
So, Dana, why don't you introduce yourself and do a brief bio for us as far as where you come from, who you are, and what you do.
Dana Smith (01:30):
Okay. My name is Dana Smith. I am originally from Dalton, Georgia. I grew up there until college. I went to school for college in Rome, Georgia at Shorter University, where I met Ben. After we got married, we moved to Fort Worth, Texas where I was an elementary school teacher in the Crowley School District. We had Benjamin, our first son, while we were there in seminary. After that I took a brief “retirement”- I like to call it - from teaching and stayed at home with the children for 11 years. In actuality, I say, my class shrunk from 20 down to four. So, I stayed home with the children until we moved to Waycross. And then I started, [during] our second year here, back in the education field. And I now teach elementary school at an elementary school here in Waycross - Memorial drive [Elementary School]. I teach third-grade math.
Ben Smith (02:23):
So, all of our married life, or most of our married life, you've been a pastor's wife. I say most because early on we were in seminary when we first got married and those first two years I wasn't actively in ministry. I was just going to school. So, talk with me just a minute about what your perceptions were about what being a pastor's wife would be like, versus what it really is. And, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the early days of being a pastor's wife and some of the things that you enjoyed, maybe some things that you did not find so enjoyable.
Dana Smith (03:07):
Okay to start off with, I do not fit the stereotype of the traditional Southern Baptist pastor's wife. I do not sing, and I do not play the piano. I always made that very clear when we were meeting with search committees in the beginning. And we had small children when we were starting that portion of your career so the roles for me from the beginning were always, I was your wife and then mom, and then as I could step in and do things in the church I would. At our first church, I predominantly helped with the youth. We didn't have a youth program or department at our first church in South Carolina and so I worked with them predominantly. Benjamin would come along and have to tag along with me. He was our only child at the time.
But being involved with you and trying to be at all the services and be supportive of you in the church role, that was important from the beginning. Establishing relationships with church members, getting to know them, that was always fun for me and important, I thought - in the role of just a church member, not necessarily just because I was the pastor's wife. Later on, when we moved to Adel, I had a big role in the women's ministry there and still the children's ministry. I think some of that coming from my gift, I think God gave me, of teaching, for the children's part. And then [I] just wanted to see women minister[ed] to in the church.
I've been very fortunate in the churches we've been in that they have not had great expectations - that meaning they didn't have a list of jobs that they expected me to do. They were very understanding that first I was the mom of our family, and I would do ministerial type things as I could and can make it work with our family. But I've been very fortunate in that the demands upon me have been very small or at least I have felt they've been very small. I think part of my job was to be supportive of you and the ministries you were in, to try to be there for you.
Some of the things you asked that I liked, or didn't like… I like the lower expectations on me. And when churches found out that I did not sing or play the piano, that was not a deal ender. That was okay. What I didn't enjoy, and I don't think any pastor's wife enjoys, is seeing when your husband is hurt, or things don't go well. And he's the one that immediately catches the blame. That hasn't happened often, but when it does happen, that's not fun to watch.
Ben Smith (06:06):
So, building on that tell me one of the high points - one of the things that, over the course of the last 20 plus years in ministry, that you remember or think about with, with great fondness connected to being a pastor's wife - maybe something you would not have experienced if it were not in your role as being a pastor's wife.
Dana Smith (06:33):
Getting to have families, or even more specific, just the ladies of the church in our home because I wouldn't be connected with all of them by age or demographics if it wasn't for me being the pastor's wife. That's fun for me to get to do that and experience interactions with them. You know, a few years ago we had a Christmas gathering of the ladies in our home to do cards and have cookies and drink coffee together. And that was fun to get [together] the different dynamics of the intergenerational group for me. That was fun to do.
Ben Smith (07:10):
Building off that last question - what has been one of the lowest moments in your ministry, in your walk with the Lord, [or] in your family life that was likely [been the] result of being a pastor's wife?
Dana Smith (07:31):
[The] role of a minister's family can sometimes be a lonely role. Meaning that you may not be able to have super tight close friends within the church body. That's a difficult position to be in, especially for someone who likes to be with people. Having tried to establish relationships like that and then having those turn was probably the lowest point for me in our ministry time together. That's not to say God hasn't blessed us with great friends within the church, but to have that relationship where you can unload freely, confidently, and without any barriers - not having that is a difficult role. And then to have what you thought might've been that turn on you was a low point.
Ben Smith (08:45):
What word of advice would you give to a young couple, particularly a young couple just starting out in ministry and [to] a pastor's wife, as far as relationships that she would develop in the church? I hear [you identify] both the desire and the goodness of having relationships within the church. So, what advice would you give her? And then secondly, how has the Lord provided for you in areas where maybe what you desired could not, or would not be met within the context of the church?
Dana Smith (09:30):
My suggestion would be, have friends within your congregation. Don't alienate yourself from them, but your deep friends, like growing up, you might've called your very best friend, or your bestie have that relationship outside of your congregation. If you're a stay-at-home mom, like I was to start with, in the pastor's wife's role, that's a little more difficult because you're limited on your interaction[s]. But if you're able to have that connection with other ladies outside of your church, take advantage of that, find someone there that could be that person, and enter that relationship - the sharing portion of how open you feel you can be – slowly. Do it with guards up and as you can lower your guards.
I have been very fortunate here in Waycross to be able to go back into the education field. And I've met great friends through teaching of whom I teach with. One in particular, whose husband is also in the ministry, but we're not at the same church, so we share a lot of the same thoughts on ministry life. And for both of us, that relationship is an avenue to where we can open up with one another. The trust is there to know that what we say to one another stays with the two of us. And I count that friendship as a true blessing that I can have a confidant - that's someone I can share my heart with and the same for her that she can share her heart with me. And we get to be that relationship for one another.
Ben Smith (11:24):
Changing gears here just for a minute. I'm very aware that when we go to church, I'm the one typically preaching. For the majority of your married life, I am the one who has preached. You have heard me preach more than anybody else. I joke within the church [that] “y'all can leave and y'all can find somebody else to preach, but if there's one person out there who's stuck with my preaching, it's my bride.” My children are going to grow up, marry, and move off someday so they won't even have to listen to me preach for their whole lives, but you're stuck. So, for better or worse I feel that sense of responsibility to you, more than anybody else. I sense that as a responsibility. (Like most pastors, when we are on our way home from church on Sunday morning I’m always asking, “Hey how was it?” And you always have a sweet answer when I hit a home run, when I hit a single, and when I foul out.) How have you, as a believer stayed fresh in your walk with the Lord knowing behind the scenes, the preacher and his failures and his successes, and my growth as a pastor (hopefully I'm better in the pulpit today than I was 20 something years ago when we got started.) How have you, particularly just in that context of preaching ministry [and] worship ministry, found ways to stay fresh and grow deeper in the Lord while being very limited in who you hear preach every week?
Dana Smith (13:48):
You have asked those questions from the very beginning “how did I do”. It's always a tough spot to put the wife in. Do you critique it, or do you say, “yeah, you did a great job.” But overall, your ministry of preaching and me being a part of your congregation has been a blessing to me. I take back from you presenting to the congregation, and just friends and family that have talked about, you know, “I can't go to that church” or “I don't like how they do this; I don't like how they do that,” your guideline has always been, is the word being preached. Then that's the main focus. And then are you gaining something from the word? It's not, whether it's the style that I like, but am I getting fed from the word. And with your preaching and your pastoral ministry and study, you have been faithful from the beginning to preach the word I don't ever have to worry about getting opinions. You come from scripture [and] you live what you preach in the pulpit. I get to see that on a front-row basis. So, I don't have any hesitations in that area of, is he really doing what he's asking us to do? I get to see that lived out on my own. As far as just being a member of the congregation and trying to pay attention and grow, some of your series I've heard before, because in different locations, we've done different things, but it's always something new. And that I think goes back to, you are faithful to preach the word, but God's word is faithful to be living and fresh word to me each time I hear it and applicable to what's going on in my life at that time,
Ben Smith (16:00):
When I was a high school student and sensing God's call in my life to ministry, one of the words of advice that I got from [a] multiple [of] people, (it's not good advice. I think understand why they said it, but I would not say this to a young man telling me today that he was called to preach), but one of the [words of] advice I got often was “if you can do anything else, do that.” So, I'd say, “Hey, I think I'm called to pastor” and they'd go, “oh, if you can do anything else do that.” I think what they were trying to dig at was if you can do anything else and then maybe you're not called to this. I wish they would have said, “Ben, if, you're called to preach, then you can't do anything else. Make sure that’s you're calling.” And then talk to me [about] why they were pushing me backwards in that it's a difficult life and there's [the reality that] the earthly rewards are not that grand in pastoral ministry, the burdens are pretty heavy, and there may be more low moments than there are high moments. And there's just some unique difficulties in ministry that that are a heavy burden.
If you had a young lady today that came up to you and said to you either, I feel called to be a pastor's wife, (which I think you'd have to ask if they had sanity) or they were a young lady getting ready to be married, and their future spouse felt the call to ministry. And so, they were asking you, what is this life going to be like? What should I know, what should I not know? What advice would you give? And did you get any advice early on that you look back on and think either that was good or bad?
Dana Smith (17:57):
I will answer the second part first. No, I did not get any advice on how to be a pastor's wife or what that life would be like. My only experience was watching the pastor's wives I had growing up. [The] advice I would give to someone would be, you're going to have to share your husband. Be willing to share your husband [and] share your family. And I don't mean that in a negative way, but there will be moments when he will be called away from you; called away from plans you already had made. And one suggestion on that would be the two of you need to decide how you're going to handle that. How are you going to handle [when] a death has arrived in a family? Yes, you need to minister to that family, but your family has something planned at that moment. I was given a little advice, but after the fact that we were already married and it was all along that line - celebrate the living, the dead are dead. [This is] not meaning don't minister to that family in their time of sorrow in their time of grief and loss, but if your family had something planned right, then finish that activity and then go step into the ministerial role. But that's something you have to work out together. Growing up as a firefighter’s kid, I guess, I was a little prepared for you having to be pulled away or being called on, at all hours of the night, with my dad, having to go in sometimes to help fight fire during the middle of the night or on his off days. But it does put a demand on your family. There's no shift of when you’re on or when you're off. You’re on all the time.
Another advice would be you and your family be you and your family. You're not any different than any family in the congregation. All though you [are] put up on a pedestal, and that not meaning high praise but more, a better way would be saying, you're in a fishbowl where everybody's watching you and your family as you're raising your young children, as you're doing some of that on your own because your husband is up in the pulpit or he's pulled away to a funeral and you're having to manage the family, you do it just as if you were normal, [just] Sally Joe church member. Your children are children. You and your husband are man and wife, humans, do it as just like everybody else would having those expectations of living in a godly home seeking to do what's right. And do the very best you can.
Ben Smith (20:50):
What is a moment of your greatest success as a pastor's wife? [What is] something you're most proud of that you did?
Dana Smith (21:18):
Maybe working with the ladies at our church in Adel. There was [a women’s ministry], they had a WMU program and the BYW program for the younger ladies. Taking that as a moment to not just [to] meet as a social club but use that moment as a time to dig into God's word as well. To make that more focused on what is God doing in our lives. [Asking] how can we grow as young women? Now I didn't do that on my own. We had a great music minister's wife as well that had that vision and together we worked on moving the BYW or Baptist young women's group in that direction. And then as a whole, bouncing off of that, just working with our ladies in the church to have a sense of belonging together, a sense of trying to grow in the word, doing Bible studies together. I guess that would be a plus.
Ben Smith (22:38):
What's the moment of your greatest failure as a pastor's wife?
Dana Smith (22:46):
On the same avenue, be the leader of those Bible studies, and then find that I had not put into it what I was asking the ladies to put into it. I'm a mom of four kids [and] you're busy (that's an excuse and it shouldn't be but it is) to not accomplish Bible studies and have my homework done. But on that same avenue doing one of the Bible studies, the leader of the study that we were working through would encourage you, don't worry about if you get behind, keep coming, stay on top of where we are, and even you would encourage me to stay faithful to going. You're still gaining from it. There will come time when your schedule is a little more open to making sure you're getting the homework done. But be diligent in attempting and trying in the process of where I'm going, the heart of what I'm trying to do.
Ben Smith (23:48):
What, from your perspective, is my moment of greatest success? [A] moment of great ministry [or] something that you're most proud of.
Dana Smith (24:16):
Just recently [it has been] been neat to see how your leadership has involved the entire congregation is the Operation Meet Your Neighbors to encourage the congregation, to meet the people who live within a one-mile radius of our church. And to see that involve people whom I would not have expected to get so excited about it. To see their passion, grow for that through your leadership on that you're prompting and encouragement to them to do that. You have a great ability to encourage people to get involved and then they follow your leadership. And you're right there with us out meeting the neighbors. That's a great example of leading by doing.
Then your discipline to encourage the congregation, as you read through, or you're preaching through books of the Bible that are not fun to preach through. But how you've taken that on and encouraged the congregation to read through, to study through the books of the Bible, even if they don't look exciting or, you know the story, and you're like, “I don't want to read that, that's going to convict me.” But you encourage us to, that's what we're supposed to do. That's why it's there. If it wasn't important, it wouldn't be between the bindings of scripture. Those are two that I can think of.
Your excitement of baptizing, new believers. That's encouraging to watch and to see. And how you challenge people when they're struggling; (and you've done this for me) what does scripture say? You always lead us back to, what does scripture say? If it's in agreeance, then you're doing okay. If not, then we need to make some adjustments. You’ve been faithful to that way back from seminary days to now that has not wavered at all.
Ben Smith (26:26):
From your perspective, what's been a moment of my greatest failure or the lowest moment?
Dana Smith (26:48):
Time management. [That] is not the right title for it because you do a great job with time with scheduling and all that, but when we had two young children and I've been with them all the week at home by myself and the weekend comes, which should have been your off time, and then you are still having to prepare, still having to get things done. And so, it felt very much like single parenting even on off days. So that would be a struggle. And then maybe not taking time when you needed some reprieve time [and] seeing that on your own. I think you knew it. I just don't think you wanted to take the time to pull away when you needed a break to refresh yourself mentally, spiritually, and physically. You're a hard worker [and] you want to keep going, to see that that was a need. I wouldn't call that a failure just that you didn't want to stop to take that pause for your own mental, spiritual renewing.
Ben Smith (27:59):
There was a season where ministry was very difficult and there were some external forces that were all conspiring to create a context of depletion. That was experienced (as you mentioned) physically, mentally, and spiritually. I would imagine that that's probably not unique to us. But, in that season you “drove the boat” for a little bit, as far as demanding ([that] might be too strong of a word, because I never sensed that you were forcing, but you very much pushed us into some opportunities)[for me] to take some breaks and, to get away. You planned some things almost without my knowledge, (not that I didn't know about it). But you said, “this is what we're going to do” and we went and did it. And, I remember, when I think back on those days, I wasn't putting together that you were trying to provide opportunity for rest and renewal. I just thought you wanted to get away and go somewhere. We've talked about it a lot since, and you had some purpose and some intensity behind those moments. So, speak to that. How does a bride, who is seeing some dangerous realities in her husband's ministry and life that are maybe he's not well physically, maybe he's spent spiritually, or otherwise? And I know every marriage is different. In ours, I tend to be a little bit (what's the right word to say?) tenacious. Is that kind? Bull-headed would maybe the other [word]. But not willing to relent. My personality is we're going to just keep charging even if everything's falling apart. We're going to keep charging. You, in grace, walked through some of those days and provided for me opportunities to get away that I probably would not, on my own, have done. And I think that's just a beautiful testimony of why God put husband and wife together that you were ministering to me, even when I wasn't aware.
So, speak to the pastor's wife, who they're in a difficult spot right now. Her husband does not want to stop. He feels the weight (because I think that's where was.) I felt the weight and I did not feel free in that ministry to take a moment for myself. And I feared that if I did take a moment for myself that the “grumpies” would use that as an opportunity of accusation? And so, I just barreled ahead. And, by grace, you were able to find some space in our life for respite. What advice would you give to a pastor's wife right now who [is] in that situation? Her husband/pastor does not want to go away, but she sees some dangerous realities brewing for him physically, spiritually, [or] emotionally. How would you encourage her [or] counsel her in ministering to her family, to her husband in that context?
Dana Smith (31:52):
To use your word tenacious. She also will have to be tenacious but on the opposite side. Seek out something to do to be a rest, whether it's a time to get away (if you can afford to do that, to take a vacation - definitely make sure you take your family vacation) whether it's just the two of you, or it's you and your children, even if it's a staycation or you go visit your parents (if you don't have funds to go somewhere,) but take that moment to recharge [and] renew yourself. You'll come back a better person, a better pastor's family because you've taken a moment to step out of that role and out of that demand upon your family's life.
You're a good watch of your husband. As his wife, you see him all the time, you see the good [and] the bad. Learn to read that and approach it as much as you can with grace and kindness and gentleness. But it may come upon you to be the planner, to be that organizer and just say, okay, this is available. We've got this time. I need you to check the calendar and I need you to put down that we're going to be gone for this chunk of time. We just need some family time. We need some time to get away. In the long run, I think that's better, even if it does allow the “grumpies” to use that as ammunition. You just need a break. You need a reset. You need a moment (if no other term to use) to get away from the “grumpies”.
You need a moment where you're surrounded by people who are on your side, who are encouraging of you to refuel so that you're able to go back and face the good, the bad, the ugly, the fun times, and the not so fun times. So, I would suggest and encourage you to be sure that you try to find that time. And then even if you're able to get away block in (this is more work on your part as the wife or the mom of the family,) some time where your husband can just be by himself for a little bit. If that means sleeping in a little later, if that means you take the kids for an hour or so to the pool or wherever, just so they can have a few moments just to unwind and, or sleep later, take a nap - that physical drain is also there. So those little areas that seem taxing may be on you to start with will pay off dividends in the long run.
Ben Smith (34:45):
What conflates sometimes (at least it did for us), was in those seasons where we most needed time away, we also had the least amount of funds. I don't know why this is, but it seems that the churches that demanded the most of on us also provided the least. So, we found ourselves needing to go away, but didn't have two nickels to rub together. You have been amazing at finding some places and opportunities to get away that cost us very little financially. As a pro tip share some of the things that you have found over the years that were the good places to go or things to do that we're not burdensome on the budget.
Dana Smith (35:42):
One area, but with caution, is if you have someone in your congregation who's willing to share a place that they have, whether it's somewhere at the beach, somewhere in the mountains, they're part of a timeshare, and they're willing to let you borrow it (if that's someone that's trustworthy and you feel comfortable doing that) take advantage of it, even if it means you have to ask. If someone in your congregation has said, “you know, we have a house at the beach, you're welcome to use it. Just let me know and I'll check the schedule” Well, that means you have to get up the courage to go ask. And even if it's every other year, every year, you still have to be strong and be courageous and go ask. Most of the time those people will say yes, and there's you a place to go with no cost other than your food or what you do there.
It's okay to take food and cook while you're away. It's not really a break for you maybe, but it's a different context. And so, it can have a different outlook.
Some places we've been: We went to Laguna beach one time. [Its] not your five-star hotel [but] a place to stay, but very clean, very family-friendly, very inexpensive for the time we went. You have to check their seasons. They do a lot of camps. So, you'd have to check if they're off-season or if it's in the middle of camp time.
Looking back on that vacation, that was one of the most fun vacations we've had. Probably the most relaxing vacation we had. We had four small children at that time. You didn't have to worry about them destroying somebody's things at their beach house or at their condo. And like I said, it was low-key. It was very basic. But we had a lot of time together. And so that was fun for us. Vacation rental by owners is another website that I've used several times to find places that are inexpensive and allow us to do things with our family.
Being ahead of the game time-wise, that's always a help. If you're doing something last minute, you may not be able to find the best deals. But if you can plan it out far enough in advance catching those early bird type specials. Sometimes you'll get a spur-of-the-moment deal if somebody's got something they just want to go ahead and get rented.
And then get creative around where you live. If you don't have to leave. Buy a tent. You can go camping at a local state park or something like that. I would suggest that in the cooler weather, not in the peak of summer. That is a fun thing. Your family makes memories. [Camping] is sometimes a lot more work, especially with small kids, but they think that's cool and you're away from things. And it gives you a chance to be focused on just each other and the kids at that time. There's not the demand of everybody pulling at you that way.
Ben Smith (39:13):
When you mentioned folks in the church that let you stay in their place, you said “with caution,” what's the caution that you were referring to?
Dana Smith (39:26):
The caution there, just like if you have professionals within your congregation that are willing to help you out, whether that be a doctor, a dentist, a mechanic, a carpenter - that is a walk I would suggest to do carefully. You don't want it to look like you're taking advantage of that because they're in your congregation and you think they're going to just do what you need because you are the pastor's family. But then also, you hate to say, but on the flip side, you don't want that to be held over your husband's head either. “Why I let you go do this, so I want you to do what I want in the church.” Sometimes it's very beneficial to you and your family and there's no strings attached (for a lack of a better word.) Other times you may feel, (and you just have to kind of use your ability to sense that through) would it be better for me just to go and pay normal price to do this, instead of taking advantage of a free opportunity if that's going to cause conflict later down the road. That's what I mean by that. And for you and I, we've been blessed that most of that in our ministry and our family's life have been strings off, no strings attached, and just true gifts for our family.
Ben Smith (40:50):
We've talked a lot about family. Where we are in life is, we have one [child] in college, one almost in college (he's a senior), one a freshman, and then a middle schooler. So, we're toward the end. I can see the end in sight as far as becoming empty nesters. Most of the time we have had younger children. Well, all of our time of ministry we have had younger children. That's why we've talked so much about family and those sorts of things. But one of the key things that I think, (I don't think, I know) is of vital importance to the health of any pastor and pastor's wife is maintaining a healthy relationship between the two (husband and wife.) The difficulty there is, in church ministry, you are pulled away often. You mentioned the demands away from family and the demand away from home. In those seasons where it's difficult and exhaustion - I would imagine that you go and you do what you have to do at work and at ministry, and then you come home and you're depleted, and there's just not much for family life - and that also affects married life. So, speak just a little bit about being married to the pastor. And how do you, in your role, (in your side of the relationship) how do you both protect that relationship and how do you work toward growing it, deepening it? And what are some of the dangers that you have to guard against?
Dana Smith (42:41):
The is a big question. And to answer it in a small answer, I would say be intentional. Even in what you would like to be spontaneous - you know, on spur of the moment, “oh, let's go do this. Let's go out to eat together,” - in the ministry role you may have to be more intentional because of that scheduling demand that pull, like you mentioned on your family. You may have to plan a scheduled date-time, a date-night time to be together. And that's okay. There'll be moments when it can be spontaneous and then you go with it there'll be others when it needs to be scheduled. The flexibility in plans changing sometimes that's hard. I'm one of those that we say we're going to do it I expect us to do it. And I have a hard time sometimes adjusting to when it can't happen.
So, I would encourage other ministers’ wives that are maybe just starting in this role, go ahead and know you're going to need to be flexible. At the same time that does not mean that you do not fight for your time. It's very easy to allow demands of church and ministry world to suck that time away. That goes back to my first phrase, be intentional. If it means you have to schedule time, schedule the time so that you don't lose that time together. If your church or your association offers workshops for pastors and pastors wives take advantage of it. If it's (like you said) you don't have two nickels to rub together for you to provide for that, approach the church and ask. You know “I think this would be very important in the health of our marriage and our relationship together that we have a little bit of time, just the two of us” and see if they wouldn't help cover that cost or split the cost with you or in some way to make it happen. Because if that relationship is better then, I think that (also back to, you know, your husband taking time for himself and to renew) that marriage relationship being renewed and protected and fought for, I think will then also bless his time in the pulpit because that's not a struggle or it's not a mental game you're having to worry about. You just don't have to worry about that element of life.
Ben Smith (45:21):
You know, I don't pretend to have figured this out when we first started. But somewhere along the way (I've always felt that pressure to put the church first and do church ministry first) but somewhere along the way I clued in that churches will dump you. I've talked with guys who did great ministry and then one day the church said we want somebody younger. And so, they dumped them because they said they were too old. I've been (not any longer) but I've been there where churches said, “you're too young, you don't know what you're talking about.” The reality is you're unlikely to be at that church for the rest of your life but by God's grace and as a great gift, you and I are stuck together. And wherever you go pack to bags because I'm going with you. So, to come to the reality that I want to protect our relationship first, and if that means doing less or a cost to my church ministry, I'm willing to make that decision. Because if it's a choice, (it's not always been a choice, very seldom been a choice,) but if it is a choice, choose your wife or your church, I'm going to choose my bride because we're going to stick together no matter what. [Are there] any dangers out there that you see as unique to pastor’s families, that challenge the marriage relationship?
Dana Smith (47:00):
Time. I think that's a big one. It could be the hidden thief that you don't realize is stealing away that time. And you think, “oh, well, we'll catch up tomorrow.” Well, tomorrow comes and goes and you still haven't had time to talk. Because there have been days… And then of course our family's busy with four children going in four different directions. I’m teaching you're pastoring. So, we are a busy family. But those moments where we've passed and you go through the week and you're like, “wait a minute, have I spent 30 minutes talking to you or not?” So that hidden thief of time guard against that as much as you can.
You would hope there would never be the fear of doubting if the faithfulness would be there or not. But one way I think that helps to avoid that is if, you know, we made this decision early on when you're meeting with people especially if it's ladies that you're having to meet with either, there's another lady on staff there with you, I'm with you sometimes, or you meet with the door open. Just so there's no sense of anything that could be said or taken out of context to protect that union between you and myself. I mean, I would make that suggestion to minister families. Especially if you're just starting out, set that as your guideline, that you're not going to meet with you know, ladies after hours, if you do, you come to my house and my wife is there, or you schedule a time in the office. On that same note, even at church, if someone comes up to you after church, I don't like to leave you, whether it's men or women by yourself, they're (and that's with anywhere or any job) you don't want to be just two people all the time. You like to have other people around, you would hope no one would make an accusation, but at least there's the third listening party there. So those might be some of the dangers that come to mind.
And then guard your kids. If you have children, you may hear people talk about, “oh, they're pastors, kids or they're PKS.” They're just kids like anybody else. I grew up as a deacon's kid. I'm not any different than a choir member’s kid. Our pastor's children are not any different than a Sunday school teacher's kid. They are kids, and you do the best you can, and you try to lead them the way of the Lord and to follow his guidance and his teachings. And, and they're going to mess up just like everybody else. And you try to make that very clear in your home that yes, they're the pastor's children, but that doesn't mean you expect, I don't expect them to behave any differently than I would my next-door neighbors, kids who are members of our church,
Ben Smith (50:19):
Going back to gardening the marriage and connecting it to time is one of the things that ( And I think I'll read this way back. I want to say it was Billy Graham that early on in his ministry, he was traveling a lot, he made the decision that he'd never spend the night in a hotel room by himself. So, he always had somebody there as just an accountability partner. My ministry has not really had a requirement of a lot of travel, but I do a little. And for the most part, not always, but for the most part, I've tried to bring somebody along, one of our kids or somebody along, sometimes a staff member, but just as an accountability issue.) But also, for our time thing, whenever you've been able to travel with me, it's a double blessing. I have you with me and I enjoy that time, but also gives us time away. We attend our denomination’s annual meeting most summers. There was a season where you couldn't go when our kids were little, and so I started taking some kids. That was wonderful memory-making with each of our children. I will cherish those memories forever, but I have enjoyed having you with me and the time and memories we've made doing those things together. Early on we did some conferences together. As our children got a little older and when you began to work, that was much more difficult to make that happen, but that was always a blessing. And it had the double blessing of both accountability and the time together.
Just to change gears just a little bit - in 2020 COVID-19 came and from my perspective, leading a church, everything has changed. So many of the old skills that we had as far as gathering people, ministering to people, outreach, in reach, keeping up, all those things of ministry we are having to rethink how to do that because gathering is more difficult. Finding people is more difficult. Distinguishing between those who are staying home because of COVID versus those who have dropped out of church is more difficult. Just everything is more difficult. It's been a struggle. From your perspective as a church member, as a pastor's wife, with a unique perspective of sitting on the pew and seeing behind the scenes what do you see has been the biggest change with COVID, and what are the new challenges these days with COVID in relationship to doing ministry?
Dana Smith (53:08):
I agree with, the approach has had to be different. You've had to get more creative in how you make things happen, how you interact with people, how you get your services out there. How do you attend church? Sometimes it was watching at home on TV when we were shut down and no one was coming out and going places to sitting every other pew, sitting only with your family, not having welcome time, waving at people across the sanctuary instead of going to speak to them. I think that has, dampered ([that]may not be the right word, but I don't know a better one,) of the experience of being together. Yes, we're together when we can, but it's not the social aspect of it. Like you mentioned, keeping in touch with people going sometimes during the welcome time would be when I could meet with people who are not in our Sunday school group, and I could ask questions, you know, “how are you doing?” And I would find out about things in their life or surgeries coming up that now we don't get to know about. Making sure people don't fall through the fray or fall through the cracks right now is harder because you don't see them. Whether they don't feel safe to come back or they're quarantining. And you just miss them through that connection somehow. For our own family, our kids, their friends were getting to stay home, we would be going to church. And so, for them trying to explain that that, yes, but we're going to be fateful and we're going to be supportive, and this is just how it's going to work for us. It took some getting used to and explaining to them. Now coming back that, things are opening up, and even in the light of the second wave of COVID coming through, trying to maintain the new normal of trying to get church going again, or getting the normal rotations of Sunday school and church services on Sundays and back to programs on Wednesdays. It's a “changing gears” cause you were out of it for a while. So even for a family who’s used to being in church, that's a shift. You have to get yourself back into that habit. And for me, seeing that I could see very easily how our church members fall into that habit of “I've missed a couple of Sundays it's hard to get back in the swing of going back to regular attendance.”
Ben Smith (55:50):
So we are, I guess, at midlife. Just about at midlife. Depends on when the end of life comes, but we're close to our midlife. So, thinking forward to either the day when we're no longer in active ministry (we are retired and we are the ‘has-beens,’) or even beyond that, when the Lord calls us home (and we are the ‘used-to-bes’) and thinking about what you would like people to remember about you, remember about your ministry, say about you, what is it that you hope, (what legacy do you hope) you leave to the church, to your family, your children of your ministry and of your work among them.
Dana Smith (56:43):
She didn't always get it right, but she tried and she tried to the end. I don't want to be ever considered to be the church member who sat and soaked all the time and never gave back. Just because I reach a certain age or retirement, that doesn't mean I get to quit doing what God's called us to do, whether that's just helping out in the Sunday school class or with children's ministry or some other avenue in life. I don't want to be the person who's reflected on and repeated that she said, “oh, I've served my time now I'm done.” I don't want that to be it. I don't always get it right. I have to go back and ask for forgiveness and apologize a lot, but I want it to be said, I tried,
Ben Smith (57:39):
That's a good word. That's a good word. So, Dana is a runner and has been a runner most of her life. So, I think what I hear you saying is you want to run all the way to the finish line.
Dana Smith (57:50):
Past the finish line. You don't stop until you're past the finish line.
Ben Smith (57:54):
She is a cross-Country coach too. So, we are getting a little coaching [to] run past the finish line.
Dana Smith (58:00):
Run hard all the way through to the very end.
Ben Smith (58:01):
That's a good word. Run the race to win. I think Paul had something to say about that.
Dana Smith:
I think so, too.
Ben Smith:
Very good. Well, Dana, thank you so much for your time today. You've been the best pastor's wife I've ever been married to, and I've been blessed, our family has been blessed, and I have no doubt that our churches, that we've been able to minister among have been blessed because of you. And my hope is, my prayer is, that wherever this podcast goes, to the tens of people that listen, that maybe in those 10 there's a pastor's wife, maybe a young lady who is preparing for this life and that this word would have been an encouragement to her. Maybe there's a young pastor who is thinking [about] how he can be a good husband to his wife and maybe this has been an encouragement and a good word to him as well. So, thank you. Thank you for the time and the bravery to do the interview with me.
Dana Smith (58:55):
Thanks for having me.
